Recording of DHSC meeting with Braddan Commissioners

Summary

The requester sought a recording of a May 2024 meeting between the Department of Health and Social Care and Braddan Commissioners regarding access to the Nobles Hospital estate. The response disclosed the meeting's attendees, a detailed summary of the discussion on vehicular access and land sales, and the conflicting positions of both parties, though the recording itself was not provided.

Key Facts

• The Department of Health and Social Care maintains that vehicular access via private roads on the Nobles Hospital estate to the Roundhouse is not acceptable due to public safety.
• Braddan Commissioners argue that an implied acceptance of access via hospital estate roads has existed since 2005 and cite a 2016 assurance from the Minister.
• The Department offered to sell land to Braddan Commissioners for £250 and provide a licence to start road construction before the land sale is finalized.
• Manx Care conducted a risk assessment underpinning the decision to restrict access, which Braddan Commissioners dispute as being overly cautious.
• The meeting concluded with the Minister stating there are no circumstances where access over the estate is allowed, while Commissioners sought a compromise to progress alternative access.

Data Disclosed

• 2 May 2024
• 2.30pm
• 2005
• 2007
• 2016
• £250

Original Request

According to Braddan Commissioners a meeting held on the 2nd May 2024 between DHSC, Minister Lawrie Hooper, and other persons and Braddan Commissioners was recorded. 'Information' is defined in section 5 of the Freedom of Information Act 2015 ('FOIA') as - 'information' means information recorded in any form' Clearly, therefore, any recording of meetings is 'information' for the purpose of the FOIA and as section 8 of the FOIA provides - Right of access to information held by public authorities (1) Subject to this Act, every person who is resident in the Island has a legally enforceable right to obtain access, in accordance with this Act, to information held by a public authority. If the recording was made by DHSC and is held by the DHSC, then I am exercising my legally enforceable right to obtain access to such recording and I require a copy of such recording.

Data Tables (1)

Full Response Text

Meeting between DHSC and Braddan Commissioners (BC) 2 May 2024 at 2.30pm

Attendees:

DHSC Minister Hooper (Minister) Joney Faragher, MHK/Member for DHSC (JF) Tanya August-Hanson, MLC/Member for DHSC (TAH) (via TEAMS) Paul Richardson (PR) Emma Barlow (EB) Georgina Jones (GJ)

Braddan Commissioners Andrew Jessopp (AJ) John Quaye (JQ) Peter Scott (PS) Andy Morgan (AM) Neal Mellon (NM) Moira Radcliffe (MR)

In Attendance Stu Peters, MHK for Middle (SP)

Minister opened the meeting and thanked Braddan Commissioners for attending. Minister started the meeting with a re-confirmation of the Department’s public position that vehicular access via the private roads on the Nobles Hospital estate to the Roundhouse is not acceptable on the grounds of public safety. With respect to the construction of the dedicated access road to the Roundhouse from Ballaoates Road the Department has offered Braddan Commissioners a number of licences in order to get work underway, some of which have already been taken up and some work undertaken. The Department is also content to sell BC the land for £250, alongside regularising the previous land swap regarding Palatine surgery. DHSC appreciate that the legal transfer of land ownership could take some time, and so are happy to give BC a licence before the land sale goes through so they can start work on the road ASAP.

AJ read out a prepared statement from BC which was also shared with DHSC in writing. The statement is set out below:

“Commissioners Position re Access May 2024

The Commissioners maintain their position on access has remained consistent throughout the ownership of the land at the Strang Cornerfield.

Ever since the land was conveyed to them by the DHSS, in 2005, the Commissioners believe there has been an implied acceptance, which is now disputed by the DHSC, that access to the Strang Cornerfield would be via the hospital estate roads. This is evidenced by the fact the Commissioners' original proposals in 2005 and the subsequent velodrome proposal around 2007 would have been accessed through the hospital estate.

When the Commissioners commenced on the current project a separate access was not part of the original design proposal from the board.

The idea of creating an alternative access came out of a meeting between officers of DHSC, Capital Projects Unit, the Commissioners and the project architect, who was also involved in the Palatine Health Centre and Tall Trees projects. It is well known that idea was not progressed as it didn't gain the support of the DOI Highway's Division.

It was at that point in 2016 the Commissioners' Chairman, concerned it might not be 100% clear in the conveyance the Commissioners had a guaranteed right of access to the Cornerfield, and wishing to avoid the dispute we are now in, over whether a right of way exists in the conveyance or alternatively by dedication, sought assurance from the then Minister for Health access was guaranteed.

That assurance was given in both the reply from the Minister to the Chairman, and subsequently in a written letter to the planning authority.

It remains the position of the Commissioners that the assurance given by the Minister in 2016 is as valid today as it was in 2016 and regardless of whether a planning approval has now been granted for an alternative access.

However, the Commissioners have always been amenable to the proposal to build the alternative access and we hope today we can find a way forward to enable construction to commence.”

The Minister stated there are no circumstances where access over the estate is allowed.
There was a discussion of the risk assessment undertaken by Manx Care which underpinned the Department’s decision to restrict access. AJ noted that the Department and BC agree to disagree on the assessment of risk where BC’s own assessment was of a somewhat lower risk than that arrived at by Manx Care who are the legal operators of the Nobles site. AJ stated that the Commissioners were looking to find some form of compromise today and they could leave the meeting with something that enables them to progress with alternative access. AJ repeated the view that ever since the planning application in 2016 BC has not been opposed to the idea of an alternative access it was just an issue of ownership and cost. BC asserted that the Department has ceased work on conveyance of land and therefore they are unable to do any work on the road. Minister noted his concerns that BC were insisting and making public that they had legal access to the Roundhouse via the hospital estate and that this created ever increasing risk. Advised that it will get to the point where the Department would have to restrict access / physically stop access and that it had already been outlined that this access is not acceptable from a risk point of view.

On building the road the Minister confirmed that the Department was happy to help with this, but that it would not be in a position to accede to BC’s demands that it should pay or contribute towards the cost beyond the contribution it is already making to convey the land to BC for substantially below market value. Minister confirmed that the Department can send BC the draft licence as long as BC confirmed they would not subsequently request funds back from the Department/Manx tax payers/Government at a later stage.

The Department confirmed that the land in question had been valued by the Government in excess of £200k. The Treasury has given approval to the Department to sell it to BC for £250. BC advised they were waiting for independent valuation of the land. BC stated that they have lost a lot of income “due to the actions of the Department” and that the cost of building the road far outweighed what they would consider to be the actual value of the land of 5k-10k so the valuation is effectively meaningless.

SP suggested that to find a middle ground, could the Department progress with the access road on basis that BC can use the west drive until that road is completed. Minister returned to the DHSC position and advised that this was unfortunately not an option. AJ wanted flexibility to be able to do this. He also said if the existing hospital infrastructure was inadequate, it should be improved.
A discussion followed about the letter provided from previous DHSC Minister Howard Quayle, the Minister noted that this letter from 2016 was to the planning committee not BC directly. It was noted that the BC planning application in March 2023 noted that BC had been requested by the DHSC they were required to find alternative access. It was noted this planning permission was granted in May 2023.AJ disputed it was a requirement for a new access, BC not told no new access equals no access and the land for it wasn’t transferred to BC. A discussion followed around the risk assessments that had been undertaken and the outcomes of those risk assessments. AJ asserted that in the view of BC there were no major risks presented by the opening and operation of the Roundhouse. It was confirmed that Manx Care have formally confirmed they do not agree with this position and that there are no mitigations that would be sufficient to eliminate the risk and confirmed that this is why access is not permissible. MR stated that it would not be a quick process to build a new access, given the petition processes that had to be progressed that could take 12 weeks and the build is estimated to take in the region of 14 weeks. Minister noted again that the Department is happy to help facilitate BC building a road through the licence and land transfer process discussed earlier and reiterated the DHSC position that access via the hospital roads is not permissible. AJ suggested that the other option was for BC to take legal action against DHSC. Minister noted that this would be a disappointing outcome but was for BC to decide but that doesn’t alter the risk assessment or the actions the DHSC would have to take whilst this process concluded. Discussion took place about the alternative risk assessment produced by BC which Minister noted was entertaining, such as the suggestion that the constabulary dedicate an officer to manage speed through the access road in order to mitigate risk. The Minister asked BC if we could agree to the new access road being built and that BC would not seek costs from the DHSC. AJ advised this could not be agreed at this meeting and the Commissioners would have to go back to base to discuss formally. NM said he couldn’t understand why the Department and BC weren’t working together to help deliver the new facility. Minister commented that the Department and Government were very supportive of the facility but that the safe and effective operation of the Island’s main hospital are our key priority. AJ raised the matter of Mr Quayle’s letter to the Planning Committee in 2016 once more and that this was a clear commitment that the Department supported access via the Hospital estate roads. The Minister asserted that he had been made aware that in other correspondence from Mr Quayle to BC it was also clear that a legal instrument would need to be drawn up to confirm this. There is no legal agreement and none appears to have been sought by BC. AJ responded by stating BC had good reason to rely on the assurances provided and therefore in light of the actions since then had acted to their detriment. JF explained that the Department couldn’t go back and change Mr Quayle’s letter, but that was 8 years ago and we have to deal with the situation as it is today. NM felt meeting halfway would be a good proposal and that BC could use the hospital roads until they build their own road. Minister again referred to the risk assessment and explained that whilst levels of activity have been relatively low the risk increases as further facilities open and as traffic levels increase. Minister outlined that this situation is exacerbated as BC are publicly advising people to utilise the hospital roads and are progressing with opening further facilities in the Roundhouse. AJ stated the risk didn’t necessarily increase.

MR asked if any particular element of the Centre concerned the Minister. The Minister replied that in the very first week of opening there was chaos when the baby sensory unit had an event. MR clarified this wasn’t baby sensory, it was the main sports hall and BC didn’t know it would be so successful. Minister said this was the problem, in that all of the public statements being made doesn’t give him assurance that this won’t happen again, and it’s more likely going to happen because BC can’t control what the dentists or nursery or baby sensory etc. do. If they have a big event, BC can’t stop them. These things outside of the Department and BC’s control are what concerned him.

It was noted that a public statement from the Chair of BC was made less than 2 weeks ago reiterating the public position that access was via the hospital roads. Discussion followed around the increased risk presented by the TT and that given this increasing risk the Minister noted that if a resolution isn’t reached then the Department would have to look to physically block access before TT.

AJ questioned if BC were to agree to the Department’s requests, what happens next. The Department confirmed that the draft licence is ready, and that the Department would support expediting any necessary funding applications or approvals etc. The Department would provide the draft licence for BC review, along with copies of draft minutes of this meeting and would seek to progress the land transfer.

The Harold’s Cottage area (the land to be transferred) was discussed and SP made the suggestion that a temporary access road could be constructed quickly whilst work was ongoing to build a permanent road and this may be a good temporary solution. Minister welcomed this. AJ expressed the view that the mix of construction work and a temporary access road was not a good idea from a health and safety aspect and could be a breach of planning and which in his opinion ruled this out as a temporary solution.

AJ confirmed that the commissioners would need to take external advice in the first instance. Minister understood this however noted that the Department would be sending a letter to BC confirming the outcome of this meeting and advising the DHSC was to take steps to stop vehicular access in advance of the TT.

AM said it was unfortunate that BC had been relying on the good will of the previous Minister to have it all swept away. The Minister responded by saying that BC had 8 years to sort the situation but appreciated the frustration.

A discussion followed around the Deed of conveyance – AJ asserted that he believed BC had pursued this numerous times over the last 8 years with the Department but they felt they had got nowhere. The Minister commented he wasn’t aware of any correspondence received on this matter and had also discussed this with the former Minister for DHSC (Mr Ashford) who also had no recollection. AJ asserted if the Minister had pushed in 2023 after his two emails we probably wouldn’t be in the current position. Minister noted that AJ sent two emails to his personal (not government) email address in the space of two years, which the Minister asserted did not give the impression of urgency or criticality.

AM asked if the commissioners agreed to fund the new access road, was there any way we could work together to compromise in the short term to manage the situation. Suggestion of perhaps re-visiting the position and risk assessment as they have been operating the facility now. Minister once again repeated the Department’s position which was based on the Manx Care risk assessment.

AM said effectively the Department was giving no choices to the BC as there is no common ground between them.

JQ felt that the Department were costing the BC thousands of pounds each month and doing a disservice to the community. He did not agree with the risk assessment, thought it was exaggerated and felt that the Minister was using this for “his own purposes” and directing his Board and Members to go along with him. The Minister strongly refuted this allegation. JF and TAH added that they were under no such instructions from the Minister and that the sole driver for the Department’s position was the risk to public safety and the opinion of the Manx Care board which the Department supports JF said the BC needed to issue a public statement regarding no access through the hospital estate and that BC will build the new access.

It was agreed to close the meeting to allow the Commissioners the opportunity to have discussions to determine what the next steps could be.

Minister thanked the Commissioners for the

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